[Volkhard]

Back in the days before retirement I used Biesse works on a Biesse Rover machining center. Creating parts (cabinetry) and using parametric functions for location and quantities (of holes) based on the overall size of the work-piece was pretty easy and straight forward. It worked like a charm and I programmed all my parts this way.

Fast forward:
Now I am a very limited "one-man opeartion in South America and have a product in mind I want to make. A Biesse Rover, I am familiar with is out of (price) range and also doesn't have enough "z" axes for what I have in mind. Therefore I am contemplating to get a gantry style router (Typical 4'x8', perhaps with basic tool-changer). But before I go there I have to look into my options to actually generate the drawings and tool-paths to be used on that machine:

Challenge:

I will have stock parts, let's say 3"x1.5" in variable lengths. I want to do some basic machining on 1,2,3 or all 4 sides of the part. creating a stable jig for good positioning should not be a problem. Some of the machining patterns (clusters) are located depending on the length of the work-piece, Also the number of these clusters can be depending on the length of the work-piece.

Is there a Cad Software out there that allows me to do just that on a reasonable budget? Probably the CAD powerhouses can do all this and much more for a steep price. But my needs beside this "easy 2D paramteric functions" are pretty basic and I don't have the budget to spent a full blown company with millions of $$$ revenue can put down.

Any recommendations where to look and what to look for?

Any input is appreciated.

[SteveWill]

I do not know what Biesse works is. I am using Punch! ViaCAD 3D v8 and taking it to CamBam. Look at youtube to see if this what you are looking for.

[Mike 1948]

Came across this, it says parametric 2D cad, but I don't know anything about it.

Solidface | 2D/3D parametric CAD

Mike

[awerby]

CAD programs just allow you to make the models; you'd need a CAM program to work out the machining strategies. It sounds like indexed 4th axis machining is what you're trying to do. There are programs that will support that, but they aren't free. You might check my site for some of them. I don't think the 2D programs mentioned are really going to be that helpful for that 4th axis indexing project, although they might be useful for relatively simple cabinet cutouts, in conjunction with a 2D CAM program.

[victorofga]

volkhard

I see youre from equador...
for cad just start out with draftsight.. that is free..

if modeling comes up, you have many option
starting with blender, or use viacad,

Punch Viacad 2D 3D Professional Version 7 PC Mac New SEALED in Box 705381275114 | eBay


for toolpathing you can start with F engrave..
that makes conturing, pocketing and v-carving

if you can invest then theres deskproto or artcam express to start..

with these you don't need separated cadprogram...

machine just go to ebay, or aliexpress and get some Chinese..

these options are viable for you.. and affordable

[mmoe]

CAD programs just allow you to make the models; you'd need a CAM program to work out the machining strategies. It sounds like indexed 4th axis machining is what you're trying to do. There are programs that will support that, but they aren't free. You might check my site for some of them. I don't think the 2D programs mentioned are really going to be that helpful for that 4th axis indexing project, although they might be useful for relatively simple cabinet cutouts, in conjunction with a 2D CAM program.

Andrew,
I think he just wants to machine a part on 4 faces that are indexed to a fixture. If it were me, and I also come from a cabinet background, I would create a fixture to hold the part at 4 stages, and they would be spaced across the table. I have a multihead machine, so in a production I would have the fixture doubled up so I can cut two at a time, at each stage. This would be pretty typical woodshop production.

OP,
I also really prefer Viacad 2d/3d V8 (about $50 US on sale usually) or if you want to spend the big bucks you can go to Viacad Pro (still less than $200 typically, I think I paid a little over $100 US). With the way that CAM software works now, I would suggest that you just learn to model your part in 3d. You can perform 2d operations on those parts, but also see that the different sides are being cut correctly in relation to each other because of the way a 3d part is programmed. For CAM, I prefer Bobcad 3 Axis Mill Pro, which has many advanced toolpaths that I think really pay off for the one man CNC shop (I'm the same, one man shop with large CNC router). Being one of the little guys, I get jobs as I can, and they aren't always the same type of work, so having a program that can generate a lot of different kinds of parts is highly important. With Bobcad, I can do V-carving similarly to Vectric using the Bobart plugin, or nest cabinet parts using the Bobnest plugin, but in the same product I can also machine aluminum 3d molds with advanced toolpath strategies other woodworking specific products just don't have that give a very smooth finish. I often use those strategies for 3d parts in wood as well. I am not aware of another CAM product out there that has that wide of a variety of capability in one package. The pricing is excellent as well if you call in and take the time to let them know what you need and what you can afford. They can usually make something work for you, so don't let pricing scare you off until you ask.

When it comes to machining 4 sides, there are several ways to do this. First, you can model the part, then copy it and rotate it into position relative to each other until you have basically 4 parts showing with the faces up that need machining. If you also model the fixture, you can place them onto the fixture as they would be in the real world. The fixture itself can then also be machined, so that's a good way to go.

The other way to program on more than one face is to use machine setups. I've done a quick video linked below that shows how machine setups work, which allow you to use a different coordinate system for each step. I made a guess as to some kind of part that might be similar to what you are doing, but your post was vague about what the parts actually are. If you know where the part needs to be on your table, you can be even more specific with your machine setups, but for the sake of the video I did not set up the machine setups to be specific to a fixture. All you would need to do that is knowing how far the part needs to be moved from the origin for the second operation on the fixture, and you could offset the origin by that amount to place the toolpath in the correct spot. In the video, I instead just simulated the same idea by offsetting the part with workspace coordinates in my simulation, but the code would not offset the parts the same way on the actual machine unless I set up the machine with multiple work offsets (could also be done that way). Keep in mind that the workspace coordinates I enter are just to affect the simulation and make the part appear to move to a new location on the table, but to actually accomplish this in the real world, you'd be better off adjusting the origin position for each machine setup. I know that all probably sounds very complicated, but once you understand it in the software, it's very easy to set up. The video below shows modeling the part in Viacad, exporting the model as a .SAT file (3d model), programming it in Bobcad V27, simulating it in Bobcad (I have the "Pro" simulation and modeled my entire machine), and finally exporting the simulated part as an STL and viewing it in Cloudcompare just to show what the part would be like if all the processes were applied to a single piece of stock.

Here's a link to the video (sorry, it's a big file and takes some time to download). I sped up the video 1.5 times normal speed to shorten it up, but I think you can still see what's going on:

https://files.secureserver.net/0s2NdTF9BR0y4R

If I have some time later, I may make a video of alternative ways to do the same thing using multiple copies of the model and a modeled fixture, or maybe a video showing more specifically how to set the machine setup origin to push the part into alignment with a fixture. It's really not that hard, but probably not that obvious either. Let me know what you are trying to do more specifically and I can help out as I can.

[Volkhard]

Hello guys and thank you very much for all the input. I think I should be more specific about what I am trying to do, to make it easier to respond.

Up to 4 sides machining: It will be okay to place the part into a jig, machine one face,pause, turn the part manually, machine the next face, pause and so on. so we don't need to have a 4th axes to move the part in 90 degree increments, although it would be a nice challenge to built such a jig.......

The machining is very basic, just some routs and holes routed, nothing dramatic, but that shouldn't really matter.

The core of my question is is regard to paramatric programming (at least the way I understand it)

Let,s say we have a part 1000mm long (LX) (forget the 4 faces at the moment, as that means just 4 programs tied together with pause in-between).

We want to drill a whole 10mm from each end and in the center.

That would mean hole 1 is at 10, hole 2 is at LX/2 and hole 3 is at LX-10

If the part is < 750mm we only need the 10mm and the LX-10mm hole

If the part is >1250 and < 1750 we would need 4 holes : 10mm ; LX x 0.33 ; LX x 0.66 ; LX -10

If the part is >1750 we would need 5 holes : 10mm ; LX x 0.25 : Lx/2 ; LX x 0.75 ; LX -10

Mathematically it is no problem to create the expressions needed for the location of these holes.

I like to be able to create a program with these expressions and have the ability to enter the value for LX (length of part) while the program is calculation the number of holes depending on my formulas and the position.

The usual way I see often used, is to create a CAM drawing first, transfer into a CAM program second and finally give it to the operational software driving the controller.

If I have to create the CAD drawing to end up with a DXF file, is there a way / program where I can apply these mathematical expressions to create the dxf files.Or can I skip CAD/dxf and go directly into CAM to create these?

At the moment for me it is all about how to create this in a timely and convenient way. Of course, the product is a little more complex than the example above, but that doesn't matter as the principle is always the same.

[victorofga]

go with draftsight, and you can find the centers, next you can convert dxf to pointcloud, so your cordinatas will be in a textfile..

then editing that file in notepad you get the gcode..


but again, your fastest way get a cheap program make layout and write the gcode out..

for example drilling, you can define simple drilling, when drill just go down to depth..
more advanced the peck drilling when you drill a little forth, and machine retract tool and again go down.. so chip don't plugging into hole

with wood also affordable to put into spindle example a 5 mm endmill
and make holes, and all conturcut with one bit..

any hole than larger from 5 mm, cabn be made with 5 mm bit. using an inside conturing..

a toolchanger I think too expenses for start..
if I were you, I would focus omn machine, and after money coming, then investing into toolchanger, or better programs..

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what you describe parametric programming that works with biesse... because that prepared for furniture..
you need to change your way ...

programs are cheap, even free so simpler to make a layout with a program and tell program drill here and there..

the next program you can get, the 20-20 a Canadian furniture program, or alphacam makes similar way..

but they cost as much as start from 20K they are just too expenses, and not sufficiently flexible for you..

right now you might drill cabinetsides for other manufacturers.. but as time go, youll get more and more complex works, where already need a lot more than describing five hole into a board..

[victorofga]

theres a small program..

the maker, or programmer might customize it you..

CabinetPartsPro

[mmoe]

Hello guys and thank you very much for all the input. I think I should be more specific about what I am trying to do, to make it easier to respond.

Up to 4 sides machining: It will be okay to place the part into a jig, machine one face,pause, turn the part manually, machine the next face, pause and so on. so we don't need to have a 4th axes to move the part in 90 degree increments, although it would be a nice challenge to built such a jig.......

The machining is very basic, just some routs and holes routed, nothing dramatic, but that shouldn't really matter.

The core of my question is is regard to paramatric programming (at least the way I understand it)

Let,s say we have a part 1000mm long (LX) (forget the 4 faces at the moment, as that means just 4 programs tied together with pause in-between).

We want to drill a whole 10mm from each end and in the center.

That would mean hole 1 is at 10, hole 2 is at LX/2 and hole 3 is at LX-10

If the part is < 750mm we only need the 10mm and the LX-10mm hole

If the part is >1250 and < 1750 we would need 4 holes : 10mm ; LX x 0.33 ; LX x 0.66 ; LX -10

If the part is >1750 we would need 5 holes : 10mm ; LX x 0.25 : Lx/2 ; LX x 0.75 ; LX -10

Mathematically it is no problem to create the expressions needed for the location of these holes.

I like to be able to create a program with these expressions and have the ability to enter the value for LX (length of part) while the program is calculation the number of holes depending on my formulas and the position.

The usual way I see often used, is to create a CAM drawing first, transfer into a CAM program second and finally give it to the operational software driving the controller.

If I have to create the CAD drawing to end up with a DXF file, is there a way / program where I can apply these mathematical expressions to create the dxf files.Or can I skip CAD/dxf and go directly into CAM to create these?

At the moment for me it is all about how to create this in a timely and convenient way. Of course, the product is a little more complex than the example above, but that doesn't matter as the principle is always the same.

The thing is, you are asking if anything works like Biesse Works, which does exactly what you want. As far as I know, there is nothing that works like Biesse Works for under $10k, and even then it will be very limited in what you can do besides specifically what Biesse Works is good at. The more specialized you get, the less flexible you get.

There are a few CAD systems that will work similar to what you are asking. The term for this is called "constraints". You want to constrain one thing to another so that when either is changed, the other stays the same in relation to it in a way specified. You can make the objects maintain a set distance from each other, or stay a specific angle to each other, which other parameters such as overall length can be altered without affecting those locked constraints.. There are some expensive systems out there that do an outstanding job of this in an intuitive way, such as Solidworks. There are not that many inexpensive systems that do this well. Turbocad is probably one of the few inexpensive products I can think of that really has a good constraints system. Where it is lacking is that it's a bit of an older style interface, but if you like Biesse Works, then this probably isn't really something you would feel is a bad thing. It won't look just like Biesse Works, but it should provide a very similar conceptual workflow, where you can use data fields to adjust the overall design of parts while constraining certain things like holes to specified disstances from ends, or locked to the midpoint of the sides and ends of an shape (centered both X and Y). Here's a quick video that shows a bit of what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TIzZintPD4

[Volkhard]

The materials I want to machine will be Aluminum tubing 1"x2" up to 1/5" x 3" and as well 3/4" MDF. The product has nothing to do with cabinetry. The toolchanger is a thought in order to switch between an penetrating endmill for the Aluminum tubes (micro mister?) and an up/down shear routerbit for the MDF.
While the process entails machining a bunch of Aluminum tubes first followed by a bunch of MDF parts, at this time a manual quick change would be feasible as long as it doesn't require tool calibration at every tool-change. Another option would be a setup with 2 routers/spindles as long as I am happy with just 2 tools.......

[SteveWill]

I would use Punch! ViaCAD 3D ( it is more then you need but at less $50 why not) the more that I use it the better I like it ( I have been learning/using it for the last 3 month). It would be very easy to lay out a door with holes. I would then take the DXF file from ViaCAD to CamBam ( you can get the old version for free and that all you need) it will output the G-Code..
For something so easy the learning curve is going to be steep.
I also use NC Corrector (free) to look at the tool paths.
I have used draftsight (free, It is like AutoCAD) I think ViaCAD is faster to draw something

[mmoe]

The other thing to point out is that while it's great to have the option to adjust parts on the fly with constraints, my experience even with cabinetry is that the parts don't vary much once you have them all worked out. I know you said it's not cabinetry, but the adjustment of parts is similar since it's a system. By that I mean you will have a finite number of possible parts. The formulas you gave are for several specific sizes. However, you could draw and modify drawings to cover nearly every possible product you will cut in less than a day, after which, you just pull up the needed drawing from a catalog of parts pre-defined. I'm not sure you would find a lot of benefit to having software do what you are asking for once you are actually up and running. If you're producing products, catalog the parts and cut them from your catalog as needed.

When I used to do a lot of kitchens and commercial cabinetry as a CNC subcontractor to smaller cabinet shops, the way I did it was to develop that catalog of every possible part these builders could need. There are only so many ways you can configure a side panel for a kitchen cabinet. You can have 1 drawer with shelving below, 3 drawers, 4 drawers, 5 drawers, etc. There were around 40 different cabinet sides that were standard, and I only had to draw something non-standard once every few weeks, which usually took perhaps 10 minutes. Once each possible combination has been created, there's never a need to do it again unless it's new, and eventually that just doesn't happen much.

Back then, I used Turbocad mainly, and I did so for the constraints. The only parts that changed were the stringer/bottom panels, so the only parts that I had to constantly adjust for were strictly rectangles (I couldn't do the horizontal boring for dowels, so I only had to cut the perimeter). I would pull sheets with the correct combinations of side panels, already programmed and ready to go to cut out all the vertical parts, then use Turbocad to stretch or shrink rectangles to provide all the shelving and stringer/bottom panels as needed for a given job. Since most of the jobs also had standard 24" and 36" base or upper cabinets, I also had programs pre-made for those parts as well. In most cases, I could cut 75% or so of a kitchen without drawing a single part. The remaining 25% could be drawn and programmed while the machine cut the other 75%. As a small shop, I'm absolutely positive that there was no way for me to gain any additional efficiency from the CAD/CAM I had. Just consider how many design variations you will have, and then how likely it is that you will need to reprogram once you get set up. From the sounds of it, these will be somewhat standardized parts, even if they vary. If so, I would again suggest you just draw each part without worrying about formulas, as it will only save you a couple hours in the long run and probably cost you more than that in time spent searching for a solution to a problem you may not really have. If you plan to make one off parts day in and day out, then something like you are describing makes a whole lot more sense and is worth the effort and likely expense to find it.


As for the toolchanger, if you can afford it I highly recommend getting it. There are two things that I now feel are worth more than they cost. The toolchanger is the first that I think provides more productivity than it costs. Yes, they are expensive, but they also can double the output of your machine. The second thing I think is worth more than you pay is having dual heads. Again, in a production of parts such as you describe, having a second head allows you to double production per time spent running the machine. You'll get twice as much product out of the machine for the same amount of wear and tear on the servos and rails. You are also paying half as much for the machine time. When I cut parts, I am always mentally billing myself for the hours the machine runs. I picture every hour as costing me $100, regardless of what is coming off the machine in that amount of time. If I run the machine for 3 hours and get 30 parts, I assign a cost of each part as $10 of machine time. If I can double that to 60 parts simply by having a second head on the machine and running two at once, I now only see each part as costing $5 to cut. In my opinion, the best machine for a production of parts such as you describe would be a dual head (spaced 1220mm or so apart, preferably adjustable between 300mm and 1500mm) where both heads are also toolchanging heads. This is an expensive machine which I'm describing, but it's only perhaps 10% more expensive than the same machine with a single toolchanging spindle and is literally twice as productive. Only you can know if it's worth it, but in my experience it's always best to be able to double your production for the same time frame.

[Volkhard]

MMoe I agree with you when it comes to kitchen parts. I have done them for many years. And if I would do cabinetry again I would have not many questions, would get used a Pod+Rail machine and would be on my way.

But my product I have in mind are Gates made out Aluminum tubing. Here we don't have much standardization and I have to start with the size of the opening and the height requested by the client. These dimensions can vary a great deal. I am creating right now a catalog of available models, before I am focusing more on the manufacturing aspect. The prototypes have been build all by hand and have given me a lot of insights to fine-tune my construction method to end up with a strong product. The prototypes have been tested and are performing very well as anticipated. Now I have to find a way to produce reasonably quickly.
Each model will have a min and a max size it can be built in. Depending on the size, I will have a variable amount of stringers, more or less hinges etc. Of course, I could draw up every job individually as I did with the prototypes. But I want to find a way to make this quicker, easier and error free.

Attachment 261274 Attachment 261276

If you look at the prototype at my new home you see the horizontal stringers. While the dimensions of the tubes are reasonable constant, the number of stringers and the distance between them has to be changed depending on the overall size of the product.

Currently I am developing a spreadsheet based tool, creating all these calculations, but it would be nice to make this graphically instead. If that is not possible (within a reasonable budget) I have to think about going from spreadsheet to CAM if there is such a way. As I am a one-man band I don't have to think about explaining things to operators at the moment, so a spreadsheet solution with a wild numbers of variables should be doable although not being the most elegant solution.

The machining I have to do is for the connection nodes used in the construction as well hinge drill patterns and drill patterns for latch and lock.

The MDF machining I was referring to will create individual templates for the frame-parts and supporting stringers to place the connection nodes. These templates are always individual parts for the particular project. The templates will change from project to project within the same model.

I hope this clears things up more and the pictures can illustrate accordingly.

[mmoe]

OK, so primarily the function that you are looking for is a way to provide equally spaced holes in the stiles of the gates with a minimum and maximum distance between them starting and ending with a hole at a fixed distance from each end. also, fixed hinges that are a specific distance or proportion away from the ends on a different side. I can think of a couple possibilities that would be reasonably fast, but will have to think on it a little as well.

I am still thinking Turbocad Pro might be one of the least expensive options if you go with a CAD solution, as you can use formulas in the calculator "dimensional constraint" table, which apply to the overall design, but I have to look into whether or not it can adapt to additional rails when the spacing exceeds a given distance. It may be that you would have to have a design for each possible number of rails, which varies the spacing of the rails for the range that you can use that number of rails in. For example, it may be that you have a file that is set up for 10 rails, which covers a stile height range from 1000mm-1200mm, and a file with 11 rails that covers designs requiring stiles between 1100mm-1300mm, etc. You could make the actual length anything within that range and the holes would be equidistant between the two fixed end holes (which are a set distance from the ends of the stiles). If you need something out of the range of that particular number or rails, you use a different file. A stile could be 1200mm and have 10 rails, or 11 rails, for example, with one having tighter spacing between rails than the other depending on client preferences.

Another option that may even take into account the number of rails and populate them as needed might be Fusion 360, but I have not got that far into the CAD side of it to say for sure. I suspect that they may be happy to show an example of how it could be done, if it can, so may be worth looking into it. The advantage there would be that the CAM portion is also built into the CAD, and for the purpose you require, it would be plenty good. Fusion 360 does have a great deal of parametric and constraint features that might be able to get the job done. I'll look into that a bit more as well and ask some of the more experienced users.

I do know that you can go from spreadsheet to G-code without too much trouble, but I'm not really that good with spreadsheet macros. It certainly would not be a very complex program, since you would just be moving position along the length of parts. You'll still need some sort of CAD and CAM software for your other purposes (like the MDF from the sounds of it), but you could pretty reasonably expect to create a Excel macro to do what you need as well. I used to know a guy that could import point cloud data and then spit out a complete G-code file to run the router from point to point, which seems more complicated than what you're after.

[victorofga]

:-)

volkhard youre not the first in this situation..
something on your mind, you try to ask and we were mean different..

this task, I have to agree with others, you wont get with a couple of variables..

but... you can lay out very quickly..

the task is, you have a ""fixed"" width element you have to fill into a space..

and space between this fixed width will be variable

here need the gap plus the fixed width value, and with this value plus one gap dividing the space... and dividing the leftover with the whole numbers and adding to them..

your simplest way that cabinetprogram.. not because it is cabinetprogram, but the programmer can make you a userfriendly input, where you can define the area fill up a few field and get the result..
even this program can make you the necessary toolpaths..

on other hand, with a very little effort, a cadprogram can make you this task in a few step.. like draftsight.. for free..

once you enpracticing, then it will be easy..

a cadprogram will yielding a lot more for you, than a specified..
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