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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Haas Machines > Haas Mills > Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    254

    Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Hello everyone. My dad requested that I look into more information on a brand new Haas 2015 VF3. I'm not a machinist by any means. I built a small 3 axis CNC router making mostly signs using the Vectric software. I just purchased Bobcad v27 a few weeks ago. I purchased the training videos and I'm somewhat comfortable with doing 2D stuff.

    Dad owns a small machine shop. I'm a computer guy at a bank but understand CNC's more than he does. He wants me to do the grunt work. I work with vendors weekly and various sales people. Some of the places I deal with get aggressive on their pricing especially during end of quarter and EOY.

    Does anyone have any purchasing experience on buying from Haas. How aggressive do they get? The VF3 starts at $65,900. With a small shop, he is definitely driven by price. He'd rather buy new also.

    Thanks for any help.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1015

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    finance it so there is minimal out of pocket and then pay it as you use it. also look at what options you want up front and then negotiate from there. adding options later will be very expensive. ultimately what kind of work do you do? even a few year old has will save you tons of money and my 95 while not the fastest tool in my shed still runs all day everyday and when I need to fix it. has still has the parts and comes to my door. so don't worry about getting an older machine if price is a big issue.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    They don't get aggressive. Once in a while they will run a special, but for the most part its really tough to get them below advertised price. The 65K will quickly get to 70-75K with a couple options.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Hello. Thanks for responding. He will definitely be financing something of this nature. He has already spoken to the bank and got preapproved for financing. He for sure wants to add an indexer and rotary to it. They list quite a few other options like memory upgrade, ethernet, etc.. I think the Intuitive Programming system would be nice since I surely don't know gcode. I'm not sure about the auger system options until we actually see one in person. I guess we don't know until we go onsite for a tour and talk to a sales person. I'm sure it's kind of like buying a car. Some of these cheaper addon's maybe they throw in to sweeten the deal. All we can do is let them know what we're willing to spend and go from there.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    They don't get aggressive. Once in a while they will run a special, but for the most part its really tough to get them below advertised price. The 65K will quickly get to 70-75K with a couple options.
    Bummer on that. I wish I could talk him into going slightly used but he wants new. I'll see if I can work on him more. I hear on price getting high. Those darn indexers and rotaries don't come cheap.

    Thanks.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    The Haas sales rep stopped last week. Basically when you build a quote online, that is your price. The list price of each specific add on is this price you pay. They had a tiny discount for first time Haas person. Then a bundling discount for adding some options together. Was disappointed that there wasn't more buying incentive. This is nothing like buying a car. With a car, you never pay sticker price. It is what it is but you know the prices are substantially inflated they want $1695 for 750mb of memory and $1595 for an ethernet interface. Hope my dad swings towards the used route rather than new.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    12177

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    You say " you know the prices are substantially inflated they want $1695 for 750mb of memory ... but to some extent this is not the case. The base price is for a minimalist machine which can allow someone with restricted finances to get into CNC at a minimal cost. Do you really need an ehternet interface? Do you really need 750mb of memory. I have a couple of dozen, or more, Haas machine and none of them have ethernet and none have more than 1mb of memor; and collectively they have earned millions of dollars for me. If you (your father I guess) are just getting into CNC do you really need ethernet, do you really need oodles of memory? What kind of work will the machine do?

    When I got into CNC 15 years ago I had an established product line and my first CNC machine was a lathe that greatly simplified the primary process for making our product; parting off aliminum round bar into pucks that then were further machined in milling machines. The CNC machine also improved efficiency on a few parts that were done in the lathe. Within 6 months the efficiency introduced by a single CNC lathe generated the free cash to buy a VF0 milling machine and things cascaded from there such that in a few years I had something like 27 machines. During this time our output went up approximately 20 fold while the number of employees went up two fold.

    Could I have done this had my company been a small jobbing shop? Probably not. And I would never have taken the risk of financing a fancy fully optioned machine on the speculation it would have been a money spinner. But I might have considered somethign bare bones to get me started.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Hello Geof, actually we didn't put either of those options in the quote. I only meant in general than if they want that kind of money for memory, you know there is quite a bit of mark up. I don't work at his shop. I work as a Network Admin elsewhere. In 2013 we stuck over 6 figures into our SAN, Storage Area Network. We can buy 32gb of memory for far less than that. Enough of that though. I guess I was just hoping for a break. More incentive. He just has a small shop. 3 guys in the shop and 3 in the office. They work mostly with Stainless steel. This wouldn't be a machine that runs 8 hours a day. Maybe 10-15 hours a week tops. The machine quoted was a VF3-YT/50. Quote was around $133k. Even a floor demo model was only a few thousand less than new. I will talk to him tomorrow. Myself, I'd rather get a newer used one. Let someone else take the hit on a new one.

    In regards to 40 vs 50 taper. What justifies one vs the other, the weight of the tooling?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    490

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    It's mostly about rigidity and roughing out large amounts of material (or using larger tools). It might be an option to entertain if he does more steel work by far, but it depends on the application since small tools and/or fine details wouldn't take advantage of the added rigidity.

    About the pricing stuff, I'd say don't think of it as the sticker price but rather as the direct minimum price...except that you actually know what it is unlike when buying a car.
    Part of the reason they don't haggle is because they're virtually the only industrial manufacturer that advertises their prices right out in the open. It's even worse though, certain other companies won't even give you a ballpark quote unless you agree to entertain an "engineering consultation" where they surreptitiously identify the size of your operation and how much cash you're willing to fork over. On the flip side, other manufacturers won't even give you tech support over the phone for a used machine unless you pay them thousands of dollars for a "license transfer." It can get pretty rough out there...lol

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    1230

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    They were "running a special" when I bought my Haas. I think it was 20% off all accessories which ended up being a nice chunk of change with all the add ons I have on there. The Haas machines are built to order and there is a waiting list. It took 6 weeks for me to get the machine after I put down my deposit. Not a lot of need to mark their already lower than most prices down any lower.

    Regarding "letting someone else take the hit" on a new machine I haven't seen that to be the case with Haas. Buying a newer used machine (if you can't find one) is usually one repair cost away from a new machine. They hold their value better than anything I've ever owned for sure.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    6028

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    And there lies the Haas Vs Higher end machines. By the time you option out a HAAS you can normally be close in the price rage of an Okuma or Mori, or Makino that come with those "options".

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    539

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Don't let the memory vs $$ thing throw you here. In the machine world that is cheap..Take a look at Fanuc and their memory prices if you want a knee bending moment :bs:

    But to your question which you already have the answer..not much wiggle room.. ok none.
    Once in a while if inventory starts to pile up you will see the 20% off accessory's that has been mentioned. Usually its in the financing package/ terms that they can offer.

    Japanese EOY is March 31 so if you shop Japanese machines you can get in there and work the salesman like a mule in the month of March :banana:
    One of the machines I looked hard at is the Okuma Genos. It came with a LOT of options standard.
    But I could never advise a new company away from Haas. Its a lot of machine for the money, you just have to watch those options they add up quick!
    Gary

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    88

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    They don't wiggle much if any at all. Haas is a great machine company that give endless support when you need it. Hard to put a price on that when your standing there trying to figure something out and they're just a quick phone call away. Used resale price is highest I've ever seen. Can't say Bobcad was the right choice,however. You'll likely break more tools and crash that new machine so many times that you could have paid for better cam/cad(that is awful crap,IMHO). Do you guys really need a VF3? The toolroom and mini's serve production environments all over the world, which could get you in the game for half the cost.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Hi. Thanks for responding. Just an update: We put in a offer on a 5 year old VF3 on Friday. It sounds likely to happen from what the sales rep told me. The machine is loaded with options. I will know more in the more with the specific details. I'm concerned on what you said about Bobcad. I bought it when v24 was out for my own personal use with my hobbyist machine. About 1 month ago I upgraded to v24 which is the latest. On Thursday I spoke to a shop 30 min south of us that runs a few Haas machine. He runs an older version of BobCAD. He didn't mention of any issues with it. I've been playing with v27 for a few weeks and creating parts while watching the videos. I actually like it. Fairly easy to use. Mastercam is out of the question.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    88

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Congrats on the VF3 find. As far as hobby use, there's a reason why Bobcad is so inexpensive. Our purchase of BC was the worst decision we have ever made in business. I wouldn't even know where to begin to explain. There's also a reason they have the longest most active user forums all over the web. I can laugh about now, but it was a bad choice. Once we switched, the difference was night and day. Best of luck with your new mill.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Thank you. The machine is being taken out of service once this company gets their new machine in. What CAM program do you use?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    88

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    When I switched form manual to cnc, I bought Bobcad, then I bought there maintence program, then there training cd's. So many problems with the software they told me to upgrade as the NEW version was squared away. So we did. Same crap, bad post processors, qwerky issues, ruined parts, hours lead to days then weeks and months of product losses. There reputation shows this. Then one night while reading a Bobcad forum trying to diagnose some problems there were guys suggesting to throw it out the window and look at OneCNC. I contacted Patrick at OneCNC West. He sent me out a trial and we were hooked. Literally cutting parts without issues immediately. So I bought a seat. Much cheaper than Mastercam and from what Ive heard, very close to performance. Never ever looked back. Just had to get my phone # off Bobcads sales as they will pester you to death and promise the moon. Again, it's dirt cheap and the performance reflects it. I don't know any professional shop that uses it. Not that there aren't any. just never heard of any. Like comparing your new Haas to a home made Harber Freight benchtop conversion mill. Just not in the same league with quality software. The speed and complexity and ease of use is priceless. Most don't have all day to play and fiddle with Bobcad and figure out work arounds, posting on a forum, or calling them for answers(which they charge for). Patrick at OneCNC West doesn't. If you would like I would be happy to talk with you as your starting out, happy to help just shoot me a email with your #.. [email protected]

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    296

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    If using 3 axis programming Bobcad is as good as anything else IMO. 4 axis programming and your better off with some of the more high end stuff. i use Bobcad almost exclusively. 99% of the time. I have only ran across one job in 5 years where i had to use Mastercam to get the G code generated the way i wanted it becuase Bobcad wasnt capable of it. The key to Bobcad is learning how to modify the post processors to spit out the G-code the way it should in the first place. Their post processors are a joke if you try and use it straight outa the box. I can run the post processor code, put it on a flash drive and send it straight out to the machines without even having to verify it. Plug it into the machine and push cycle start. Any cadcam software will be almost useless if you dont learn how to operate it properly. Its a steep learning curve if you are just getting into it.

    And as far as buying new or used heres my $.02 . If you want alot of the options buy used with the options you need for the price of a bare bones new machine. If you just need a bare bones 3 axis machine go ahead and buy new.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    88

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    I had used Mastercam which was nice but horribly expensive. Tried to save some money and bought Bobcad. You're right about the post processor. It was not very intuitive to operate. Almost like the designers were not machinists. I almost always verify/simulate our code and toolpaths. With Bobcad, you had to buy Prediter Editor in addition to their software, then figure out how to use it as it wasn't integrated with Bobcad. Applications(like chamfer) didn't work properly so you would have to find a work around. Call Bobcad, submit the issue, then I saw Bobcad tech support on the user forum asking how to make the chamfer function work(WTF)? Each time they would say it's a software cliche. Resolution, buy the next version! I would post code then read line by line correcting bad code. This was ridiculous. Still to this day, there user forums are packed with questions on how to use their software. All I saying is if a person(especially new to programming) can afford to get something else, they will be money and time ahead by avoiding Bobcad. Especially considering there is free stuff that works as well or better than Bobcad.
    As you are happy and have made it work for you, I can't imagine how efficient and productive you would be with a good program.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    254

    Re: Brand New Haas VF3 and Pricing

    Gitrdun- Thanks for tuning in. I appreciate you commenting on your experience with Bobcad. An update on the machine. We sent out the 10% down today and the machine will be ready to put on the truck 30 days from now. This machine is loaded! Would cost over $110k to buy this VF3 today. In regards to Bobcad, I'm going to use it at first since the investment was already made, even though I initially bought it for my home CNC router. In regards to the shop, most everything will be 2 axis milling ( pockets, profiling, drilling, taps ). We need to get at those items before we even think of moving on to 3 & 4 axis milling.

    Can you guys (Gitrdun & mtlhe) please tell me what is the latest version you've worked with for Bobcad. Mtlhe- you must of been working with a really old version. Predator was included with v24 I know for sure since that was the first version I had. I have v27 now. I really want to get honest opinions from people that have v26 or v27. I watched a video on v21 and I could see why people had the negativity they did back then.

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